New Delhi:

Sri Lanka wants to capitalise on India’s growth and it has given an assurance that it will not allow any country, including China, to use it in a way that harms New Delhi’s security concerns, the island nation’s Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Tharaka Balasuriya, has said.

In a wide-ranging conversation on NDTV Dialogues, Mr Balasuriya stressed on the alignment between Sri Lanka and India in terms of increasing connectivity between the two countries and also said that there is a need for changing the current financial and political architecture of the world, which he called a “Second World War winners’ club”.

To a question on India’s concerns about China, including the docking of Chinese spy ships in Sri Lanka, the minister, who was in New Delhi for the BIMSTEC Foreign Ministers’ Retreat, insisted that the vessels were at the ports only for replenishment and not for any kind of surveys.

“I am sure India will have security concerns. It’s natural when you are becoming a bigger and bigger power, a more important player in world politics, to have concerns. But, from Sri Lanka’s perspective, we have given an assurance that we will ensure that no country uses Sri Lanka in any way to harm India’s security concerns. Of course, that does not mean that we don’t want to trade with China… I think we need to have a distinction between what’s harmful for India’s security concerns, and trade,” he said.

On Indian Foreign Minister S Jaishankar’s warning of a debt trap earlier this year, which was seen as a reference to China, Mr Balasuriya was candid and said that when Sri Lanka’s economic crisis began, only 10% of its foreign debt was to Beijing. “If we have had a debt issue, then there’s no point in us blaming this or that country. The reason we got into this situation is our own doing and we can’t blame other countries for that,” he admitted.

World Order Reforms?

Asked about calls from India and other countries for reform of multilateral institutions like the United Nations Security Council, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, especially in view of the Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Hamas conflicts, the Sri Lankan minister said something like that is much needed.

“If you look at the current world order, it’s a Second World War winners’ club. In 1945, the UK controlled about 10% of the world’s GDP, largely thanks to India, and also a large population. But now they are not as significant. But it’s not just a question of India… African and Latin American countries also don’t have a veto or a voice in the Security Council in terms of permanent membership. So, certainly, both the political and financial architectures have to change,” Mr Balasuriya emphasised.

“And I think India certainly has a very large role to play. It has been a leader in the Global South. But, sometimes, India also needs to compromise its interest against the interest of the Global South and take a leadership position,” he added.

The minister said that India should have a position in the UN Security Council and called for African and Latin American countries to have one too. “We need to look at the overall structure,” he said.

India-Sri Lanka Ties

Mr Balasuriya said the Bay of Bengal Initiative for Multi-Sectoral Technical and Economic Cooperation (BIMSTEC) Foreign Ministers’ Retreat was held in an informal atmosphere and there was a free flow of ideas.

He said he particularly liked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s point that while the European Union had been very successful, South Asia had fallen short, primarily because of connectivity issues.

Emphasising that Sri Lanka’s people-to-people connectivity with India has always been strong, he said his country is looking to take that even further. Sea, air, and grid connectivity with India are also priorities, he said.

To a question on Mr Jaishankar’s first visit in PM Modi’s third term being to Sri Lanka and the importance of a proposed bridge between the two countries, Mr Balasuriya said, “From Sri Lanka’s perspective greater connectivity will be a game-changer. Apart from Gujarat, four of the fastest-growing states in India are in the south. For example, Tamil Nadu has 140 million internal tourists and Rameshwaram, which is the closest point to Sri Lanka, has 10 million.

“So we want to start the ferry service as soon as possible and maybe tourists can come visit the Shiva Temple in Sri Lanka’s Mannar. So we are very interested in capitalising on India’s growth,” he added.

Fishermen Arrests

The arrest of Indian fishermen has been a long-standing issue between Colombo and New Delhi and Mr Balasuriya acknowledged this.

“I was in the foreign ministry reading old notes and found correspondence between Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and Prime Minister Sirimavo Bandaranaike in the 1950s, and the fishermen issue was on top of the agenda even then. But the problem is that it’s not just one or two Indian fishermen, thousands come to Sri Lankan waters… And people in north Sri Lanka are deprived of their livelihood,” he said.

The minister said growing connectivity between India and Sri Lanka can be a ray of hope in this as well. 

“People who are into fishing (in Sri Lanka) could move to the tourism industry if they can make more money there. India and Sri Lanka have to look at fishing from a sustainability perspective,” he said.

New Delhi:

The rise of China is the fundamental reality of international politics and India has become very important because it is the only country in Asia that can provide a “counterweight” to it, Fareed Zakaria has said.

In an exclusive interview with NDTV’s Sonia Singh for the NDTV Dialogues, the veteran journalist and geopolitical expert – who has written a new book, ‘The Age of Revolutions’ – spoke on a range of issues, including challenges to the world order, India’s role in that context and the implications of a possible third term for Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

To a question on the revolutions mentioned in his book, especially geopolitics, and the challenges posed by the rise of different countries, the Indian-born American journalist said, “The rise of China and the return of Russia have become the crucial new features of the world order and both of them present a kind of frontal challenge to the existing rules-based international order. India becomes very important in that context because India can provide a kind of ballast or counterweight to China. It’s the only country of the size and scale that has the capacity to do that in the long run in Asia.”

Mr Zakaria said India can also provide a counterweight in terms of upholding a rules-based international order, which it has historically been in favour of.

“(Like) emphasis on state sovereignty, emphasis on adjudicating things through bodies like the United Nations. So there is a very positive and constructive role India can play in this new world. There’s a market, if you will, for India out there. There’s tremendous goodwill in the United States, and in Europe, for India,” he added.

For India to leverage this position, however, the CNN journalist said it faces a challenge on two fronts. 

“One, it has to grow economically. India is still more a story of potential than of realised potential. China is still five times larger than India in economic terms. In terms of per-capita GDP, India is still a poor country. It is $ 2,700 per capita, which makes it the poorest country in the G20. So, to wield its weight, it will have to continue to move economically and, frankly, a bit faster. A poor country like India needs to move at 9%.

“The second piece… India needs to remain committed to a rules-based international order. There’s always a danger that a country like India will seek a narrow and short-term temporary advantage and forsake some of those rules. India has the potential to be a rule maker, rather than a rule taker in the new world order. It can shape the agenda, it can make the rules but, in order to do that, it has to live by them,” Mr Zakaria emphasised. 

Historic Third Term

Asked about PM Modi’s approval ratings being the highest globally and whether a historic third term for him would give him a democratic legitimacy that some other world leaders lack, Mr Zakaria said, “That does provide a certain kind of both moral and political ammunition for PM Modi. Will it matter to (Chinese President) Xi Jinping, (Russian President) Vladimir Putin and people like that? Not really, their view is to deal with the government that is in place. How it got there is no concern of anybody on the outside,” he said.

The veteran journalist said the key question would be what PM Modi does with his third term if he gets it. 

“What does he want his legacy for India to be? It (a third term) would be historic, he is very popular and a lot of the country listens to him. So he can either appeal to what Lincoln called the ‘better angels’, or there are other paths,” he said.

UN Security Council Less Relevant?

Israeli author Yuval Noah Harari had told NDTV that India can speak to countries like Iran and the world needs nations like that, which can speak to all the major players in this “geopolitical turbulence”. 

When Mr Zakaria was asked if he agreed, he said, “India does have relations with Iran, which could be very useful, but has it used that capacity… to try to create a more stable, peaceful atmosphere in the Middle East? Has it tried to broker some kind of negotiations or anything that could bring the temperature down? The Chinese have played that role. I wonder why India shouldn’t. I think India would be better suited to do it because Western powers would trust India more than China by a long shot.”

The journalist also said that India should have a place in the United Nations Security Council but that may never happen because China could veto it. He stressed that, because of factors like these, organisations like the UNSC will become less relevant and groupings like the G20 gain more importance. 

‘Politically Savvy’

On the global backlash against liberalism, Mr Zakaria said the amount of forward movement that has taken place and the realisation that power has been concentrated in the big cities has added to it. People who can capture this backlash have an advantage, he said.

“Prime Minister Modi is almost unique in that he has been able to both be an insider and an outsider. He can appeal to the ‘aam aadmi’ and at the same time, of course, he is Prime Minister. Trump has a little bit of that same technique but, of course, he’s much less popular. In America, there’s a much larger urban population, a much bigger group of people who feel like Trump is not their guy,” he said.

“But Prime Minister Modi has been able to both appeal to the common man and, at the same time, be part of the technocratic, technology based wave of modernisation that is happening in India. Which is why, I think, he’s been so politically successful… He is politically very savvy,” the journalist added.

Addressing India’s digital revolution, Mr Zakaria said, “India, as a poor country and as a late arrival in technology, chose the best path it could have taken.” He also, however, emphasised the need to “create great Indian technology companies” by leveraging this infrastructure.